Author Topic: My Dream for WWF would to be recover 1or2 Baldwin 2-6-0 from Brazil  (Read 5399 times)

Thor Windbergs

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Ok guys,
I will probably start something but I have been thinking for a long time, I'd like to see more of the 60cm engines in Brazil preserved. At the EFPP with 17 engines/hulks there will be a lifetime to restore or preserve them and they are state property so not for sale, as is most of the preserved steam engines if they were ever under the national railway administration during communistic rule. That leaves engines that were left, tolerated in semi-private plantations or industrial railroads, of which they were many.

There is a big expensive book call "Inventario das Locomotivas a Vapor No Brasil" ISBN85-906677-0-7 which is a 2006 published pictural inventory of 450 existing locomotives all over Brazil and on page 180 are "Cards" 120 & 121. Vol66pg365-366pdf229-60cmWilliamsCo4UzimaTiumaBRAZIL1920_8-14D39dwg10Rd6SN53375
Vol72pg159-169pdf104-60cmU.CansacaoDeSinimbu4UsinaTiuma1924_8-14D42dwg10Rd7SN57668Brazil-preserInv.122pg180

Which are some of the most modern 60cm/2ft Baldwin locomotives in Brazil, after 1924 I don't think Baldwin accepted orders for such small locomotives anymore. Anyway the pictures in the book from 2006 make your mouth water, looks like you could light a fire in them and drive out of the hall, except there are no tracks. From what little research online I did with my Portuguese it looks like the Sugar cane plant was shut down and assume by the ownership of Votorium, probably the land is still used, the cane or soybeans are processed somewhere else. Maybe these engines could be liberated from Brazil, it is close to Recife in Perambuco which is not so populated...

If you want the files bigger email me and I'll share them, the builders photo is a thumbnail from the RR-MP Website, I haven't bought a copy, yet. These would be sweet machines for your mostly strait track, I'll let you experts tell me which engine they would be closest to with their 30,000lb weight and 6180pdstractive effort, No.15?

If there would be interest in the US to fund an inquiry, I would know some people that might well know the right form of diplomicy to go an ask if they would be for sale, with the week economy right now maybe it would be a good time. But they will surely not give them away for $10,000. Sorry this has been bouncing around in my head for too long it just had to get out.

Cheers and good night
Thor
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Philip Marshall

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Re: My Dream for WWF would to be recover 1or2 Baldwin 2-6-0 from Brazil
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2016, 10:01:39 PM »
That's a beautiful dream, Thor. Reading your post made me smile. With your connections in Brazil you are better placed than any of us to gauge the potential for such a transaction.

I'll let you experts tell me which engine they would be closest to with their 30,000lb weight and 6180pdstractive effort, No.15?

Are you sure about the 30,000 lb number? That's really really small for a 2-6-0, smaller even than our No. 9 which is 36,000 lbs.

SR&RL No. 15 (ex-P&R No. 3) had an engine weight of 46,000 lbs minus tender, and was a Baldwin class 8-20 D. I don't have a figure for the tractive effort but I suppose that could be calculated.  SR&RL Nos. 16 and 18 were actually the same weight as originally built, 46,000lbs, but SR&RL No. 19 was a little more massive at 49,500lbs.

By comparison, WW&F No. 6 (a Baldwin class 10-18 1/4 D) weighed 51,500lbs minus tender and had a tractive effort of 10,625 lbs.

Best regards,
Philip


Glenn Christensen

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Re: My Dream for WWF would to be recover 1or2 Baldwin 2-6-0 from Brazil
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2016, 10:46:46 PM »
Hi Phil,

You're right, some of these locos are really tiny! 

To my way of thinking, some of these locos are probably too small for the WW&F and other MTF operations.  But then the Ffestiniog allows for guest locos and even double/triple heads them for special events.  These Brazilian puppies are our analog to the wonderful quarry/hobby locos used in Wales.  They would also be useful at operations like the Sandy River, Erie Canal Village, Boothbay Railway Village, and for private use.  (ie - short, sharp curves, and not too steeply graded.) These lines would like an American loco if they could find one of suitable proportions.

Even better, as Thor points out, a number of the survivors are big enough to useful to museum lines like the WW&F, Edaville, and the Cripple Creek and Victor. 

I'll do my best to help you guys find good homes for these survivors.


Best Regards,
Glenn

« Last Edit: April 26, 2016, 04:01:21 PM by Glenn Christensen »

Philip Marshall

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Re: My Dream for WWF would to be recover 1or2 Baldwin 2-6-0 from Brazil
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2016, 10:25:28 AM »
Tiny is the right word, Glenn! 15 tons would be about midway between W&Q No. 1 and No. 9 in weight, which seems almost incomprehensibly cute for a 2-6-0. :) It makes me wish I had a pot of spare money lying around, but I don't...



Glenn Christensen

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Re: My Dream for WWF would to be recover 1or2 Baldwin 2-6-0 from Brazil
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2016, 04:03:59 PM »
Amen brother!!!

Glenn Christensen

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Re: My Dream for WWF would to be recover 1or2 Baldwin 2-6-0 from Brazil
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2016, 07:10:58 PM »
Ok guys,
I will probably start something but I have been thinking for a long time, I'd like to see more of the 60cm engines in Brazil preserved. At the EFPP with 17 engines/hulks there will be a lifetime to restore or preserve them and they are state property so not for sale ...

There is a big expensive book call "Inventario das Locomotivas a Vapor No Brasil" ISBN85-906677-0-7 which is a 2006 published pictorial inventory of 450 existing locomotives all over Brazil and on page 180 are "Cards" 120 & 121. Vol66pg365-366pdf229-60cmWilliamsCo4UzimaTiumaBRAZIL1920_8-14D39dwg10Rd6SN53375
Vol72pg159-169pdf104-60cmU.CansacaoDeSinimbu4UsinaTiuma1924_8-14D42dwg10Rd7SN57668Brazil-preserInv.122pg180

Which are some of the most modern 60cm/2ft Baldwin locomotives in Brazil, ... the pictures in the book from 2006 make your mouth water, looks like you could light a fire in them and drive out of the hall, except there are no tracks. From what little research online I did with my Portuguese it looks like the Sugar cane plant was shut down and assume by the ownership of Votorium, ... Maybe these engines could be liberated from Brazil ...

If you want the files bigger email me and I'll share them, the builders photo is a thumbnail from the RR-MP Website, I haven't bought a copy, yet. These would be sweet machines for your mostly strait track, I'll let you experts tell me which engine they would be closest to with their 30,000lb weight and 6180pdstractive effort, No.15?

If there would be interest in the US to fund an inquiry, I would know some people that might well know the right form of diplomicy to go an ask if they would be for sale, with the week economy right now maybe it would be a good time ... But they will surely not give them away for $10,000.

Sorry this has been bouncing around in my head for too long it just had to get out.

Cheers and good night
Thor

Hi Thor,

I've done a little looking and the Maine locomotives closest in size to Usina Tiuma Baldwins were the 15-ton Hinkley-designed 0-4-4Ts that ran on the B&SR, Monson, F&M and KCRR.  As far as I can tell their TF is about 4000 pounds.  These locos were "in size" exactly between the B&B engines (12 tons, TF 2636) and the later Portlands like WW&F #9 (18-ton, TF 5363).  WW&F #10 (a 12-ton Vulcan with 2856 pounds TF) is about the size of the B&B Hinkleys, although I wouldn't be surprised if she comes out of her current rebuild with a bit more "juice".  So if #10 is good for 2 cars up "The Mountain" and #9 is good for 4 cars up "The Mountain" a 15-ton Hinkley would have been good for about 3 cars up "The Mountain".

Question, do you have a computerized scan of the picture at the top of page 106 at the end of the Hahmann/Small 'Brazilian Steam Album Vol. 1".  If so, could you post it?  It's Usina Tiuma #7.  I believe this locomotive is similar to the ones we've been talking about. There a other UT locos depicted here as well.

Best Regards,
Glenn



 

John Stone

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Re: My Dream for WWF would to be recover 1or2 Baldwin 2-6-0 from Brazil
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2016, 08:07:17 PM »
Fascinating little moguls, Thor! I'm thinking at 15 tons total engine weight, 6180lbs TE is probably pretty accurate, as the majority of the engine weight would be carried on the drivers. I believe a 15 ton Forney probably has a fairly significant portion of its' weight on the tender truck, therefore reducing its' tractive effort. Modern steam designers generally tried for a factor of adhesion in the 4.0 range. 4lbs of weight on drivers for every pound of potential tractive effort. A smaller factor of adhesion tended to make for a slippery engine, higher numbers made for a sluggish engine. So if we figure about 25,000lbs on the drivers, that leaves 5,000lbs on the pilot wheels. Probably actually has a little more of that weight on the drivers for steadier performance on rough track.

So, is the museum sending a schooner South from Wiscasset anytime soon?

Roger Cole

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Re: My Dream for WWF would to be recover 1or2 Baldwin 2-6-0 from Brazil
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2016, 06:42:27 PM »
There is a classified ad in the latest (June 2016) TRAINS magazine listing 2 Brazilian steam locomotives for sale.  I went to their web site and there are several photos, but I don't know any Portuguese (I think that's what they speak in Brazil).  The ad states they are "metric", but I think they meant to say that they are "meter" gauge.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 11:18:55 PM by Roger Cole »

Glenn Christensen

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Re: My Dream for WWF would to be recover 1or2 Baldwin 2-6-0 from Brazil
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2016, 11:02:54 PM »
Hi Roger,

Yup, sounds like they're talking meter gauge.  It would be unusual for a 60cm or 610mm loco to be numbered 89, but that doesn't mean its impossible.  If you can get me a copy of the Portuguese language version of the ad, I will attempt an English translation.


 Best Regards,
Glenn

Roger Cole

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Re: My Dream for WWF would to be recover 1or2 Baldwin 2-6-0 from Brazil
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2016, 11:21:43 PM »
Here's a link to the web page mentioned in their ad.
http://www.locomotivasavapor.com.br/home.htm

Carl Soderstrom

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Re: My Dream for WWF would to be recover 1or2 Baldwin 2-6-0 from Brazil
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2016, 05:46:15 AM »
Glenn

If you need translation you can get in touch with my SIL.
She grew up in Sao Paulo.

Will let you guys talk direct.

Let me know

Glenn Christensen

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Re: My Dream for WWF would to be recover 1or2 Baldwin 2-6-0 from Brazil
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2016, 01:58:32 PM »
Thanks for the offer Carl!

I may need your sister-in-law's help at a future date, but my mother's side of the family came from the Azores and I've wanted to learn Portuguese for a long time anyway.  I took Spanish in both High School and college, so I have some background.

I have the locomotive files translated already, but am having problems figuring out how to post them here as I've never worked with these file formats before.  I'm also having problems figuring out how to get translated text into the "directory" pages that allow you to switch from page to page.  (I don't know that the word "directory" is the correct term, but to I'm using it in an attempt describe a page that allows me to skip from say, the "Home" page to the "Contacts" page.)

I've reached out to Ed Lecuyer and requested his assistance.  I've always found him to be very helpful.  

Hopefully we'll be able to get things moving before too long.


Best Regards,
Glenn



« Last Edit: May 03, 2016, 02:01:01 PM by Glenn Christensen »

Carl Soderstrom

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Re: My Dream for WWF would to be recover 1or2 Baldwin 2-6-0 from Brazil
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2016, 05:16:40 AM »
Welcome.

She does Mandarin also as does niece.

Glenn Christensen

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Re: My Dream for WWF would to be recover 1or2 Baldwin 2-6-0 from Brazil
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2016, 06:11:47 PM »
Hi Folks,

After reviewing the locomotives listed on the "Locomotivas a Vapor" (LaV) website, I have found that all listed locomotives were or have been regauged to meter (39.37") gauge.  Please note, this does NOT say that any appropriate locomotives either from Brazil or LaV won't be considered in the future.  It simply means that THESE locomotives are not under consideration for acquisition at this time.

Because of the technical problems we've encountered, we have determined that there is simply no good way for us to capture the translated text alongside its related picture in the same view. But as I have completed the translations for the six LaV locomotive descriptions, I will add each description as six additional replies to this one.

To see the pictures that go along with these descriptions use the following http link to get to for the LaV site:
 
http://www.locomotivasavapor.com.br/home.htm

Once there, do the following:
From the "HOME" screen select the page called "Nos Trilhos".
It will take a couple seconds for the page to load.
Click on the picture of the locomotive whose description you wish to read.


Best Regards,

Glenn


« Last Edit: May 04, 2016, 07:14:09 PM by Glenn Christensen »

Glenn Christensen

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LaV locomotive No3 description
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2016, 07:16:08 PM »
Locomotive No. 3



1 - Baldwin catalog, in November 1920.



2 - US Barcelos, SJ da Barra, Brazil in 1974.



3 - In the plant in 1974.



4 - In 1984, on the farm, Rio de Janeiro.



5 - Reform of the boiler.



6 - Exchange internal walls of the furnace.



7 - Inspection of the abutments.



8 - Recovery of the bearings in the bearing housings.



9 - New ashtray.



10 - day tour; the background, the locomotive 148.




11 - After the reform, with new coating boiler.




12 - Another aspect of the machine.




13 - Tour Day.




14 - Maneuvering.




15 - Eye Machinist in lubricator.




16 - Visual of the stoker position.




17 - Small platform along the EF




18 - enthusiasts visit our workshops.




19 - Locomotive 3 with clean-rail old.




20 - With clean-rail again, next to the water tank.




21 - A view from the farm.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2016, 07:33:14 PM by Ed Lecuyer »